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 Tytuł: [BG] Grunwald 1410 (Dragon)
PostNapisane: wtorek, 3 kwietnia 2007, 14:38 
Colonel Général
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Dołączył(a): czwartek, 22 grudnia 2005, 15:40
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Grunwald 1410 (1)

Ok, to start...

When in Poland boardgaming started it appeared the game "Grunwald 1410". It was in 1990 or sth like that. It wasn't the first Polish boardgame (historical boardgame I should say) but one of the first...

The game simulates the battle of Grunwald, which had place in 1410 (15th July 1410). This is the most famous historical event in Poland, well known to small children, pupils in primary school and so on. In the battle forces of Teutonic Knights was completly destroyed by united Polish-Lithuanian army supported by Crimean Tatars. It was also the biggest battle in medieval Eastern Europe. Teutonic Knights forces are estimated to be abuout 20 000 - 30 000 people, Polish-Lithuanian Army was larger. It was chivalric battle (main role played heavily armoured knights units). So larger part of both armies was heavy cavalry. Historians discuss if there ware also infantry units but because of battlefield was quite opened as I said main battle was between cavalry. Battle started with furious attack of light Lithuanian and Tatars units on the right wing of Teutonic Knights Army. Quickly Lithuanians 'didn't keep the field' and retreated. It's a vide discussion if it was only a 'usual' retreat or it was a special manouvre which had to break Teutonic Knights line and push their knights to disorder during pursuit. We don't know the truth but in fact left Teutonic wing during pursuit disordered, the other reason of it was the woody terrain which spreaded widely behind Lithuanians. In the wood, shattered with moods, knights wasn't so effective as in open field. Lithuanian forces after first combat shock reorganizated started to attack disordered Teutonic units which tought the battle was won and only thing they had to do is pursuit and approach camps of Lithuanian and Tatar army.
Meanwhile, on the Teutonic right wing and Polish left wing lasted frontal battle. In the one moment Teutonic Knights captured the banner of the whole Polish-Lithuanian army but it mobilized Polish Knights. Minute after minute they were turning defeat into great victory. In the end Teutonic army was flanked by coming back reorganised Lithuanians and Tatars (comanded by Dzelal-ed-Din) - they had mainly light cavalry wchich was very fast, and Polish wing also flanked Teutonic near village Łodwigowo. The second part of the battle was an attack of Ulrich von Jungingen, the great master of the Teutonic Knights Order who commanded 16 units which stayed in the rear prepared to make an decisive attack broking enemy army. But Poles also had reinforcemnts prepared to balance it. Attack of the great master was in the same time when from the forest started to appear Lithuanian forces. Loses of both sides was huge, from the Teutonic Knights army counting before the battle 20-30 thousands retreated only about 1000 people. Polish loses was also very large, especially in the middle of battleline where the combat was enormously bloody.

So that was abut the battle... :) It's easier to write abuot history i think :wink:

The game was qiute easy, espaecially for wargamers playing comlicated figure using systems. Teutonic forces - 120-130 counters, Polish-Lithuanian army about 180 I think...
Many standard rules - like zone of controle. It was very essential how the unit was fronted.
Combat relies on summing up strenght of fighting units and decrease it by the strenght of enemy (so my strength minus enemy strength). Bad side of it - I mean disadventage - was that attack of two units of heavy cavalry on one enemy unit of heavy cavalry resulted in decisive defeat of attacked side.
Movement was easy, very essential feature were the costs of turning which was very high, so that manouvre (changing facing) of the unit was very hard.
Turn sequence was very easy. First moved one side, than the other.
There was movement phase, than combat phase, and reorganization phase, first one side, than - other. Between Polish movement phase and combat phase Teutonic player had shooting phase (crossbowmen and bombards).
Combat results were: elimination of whole unit, dezorganization (it' s not exact translation - it was called 'disperse'... but so will be easier) and withdraw by 1 hex, retreat was by 3 hexes and was always connected with changing units state into dezorganised. Units didn't loose points of strength but there was something like symbole of the first attack - when during the first combat unit didn't take decisive victory their strength was decreased - the player was obliged to turn the counter on the other side where the strength was by 1-2 points smaller. And - it was an element of strategy in this game - Teutonic units at the beginning was stronger but when they had lost symbole of the first attak they had lost 2 strength points and Polish and Lithuanian units 1 point only. It was an indication how to play and obviously not everyone saw it just when he was beginning.
Another interesting element was obligatory pursuit - in the geme there was a command line rules - very easy. When any unit was too far from own commander its movement abilities were decreased. For example he could do only one change of facing during own movement phase. Another essential rule was mentioned obligatory pursuit - when the enemy retreated and your commander was 5 hexes or more from the unit you had to pursuit after him the whole retreat way. It could easily break the battle line, especially in Teutonic Knights army. And Teutonic Knights had 3 commanders for the whole army, and Polish-Lithuanian army 7 commanders. So now you colud esily understand the tactic.

I am rather analytical when I describe rules so I'm trying to concentrate on chosen aspects and the disadvantage is that I don't write everything but I hope you could make some opinion after reading it. I would expand if you were interested..

_________________
Panie, weźcie kości w rękę i wyobraźcie sobie, że gracie z królem Kastylii, i rzucając je na stół zdajecie wszystko na los bitwy. Jeśli dopisze wam szczęście, zrobicie najlepszy rzut, jaki kiedykolwiek uczynił król na ziemi; a jeśli rzut wam się nie powiedzie, inaczej nie odejdziecie z gry, jak z honorem.

Gil de Osem do króla Portugalii Jana I Dobrego przed bitwą pod Aljubarrotą (14.VIII.1385)


Ostatnio edytowano czwartek, 14 sierpnia 2008, 12:26 przez Raleen, łącznie edytowano 2 razy

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PostNapisane: czwartek, 5 kwietnia 2007, 15:20 
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Dołączył(a): piątek, 23 lutego 2007, 16:31
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WOW Raleen - you would expand on this!!! Thanks a lot it is great and gives a good overview of the game.

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PostNapisane: czwartek, 5 kwietnia 2007, 15:28 
Colonel Général
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Dołączył(a): czwartek, 22 grudnia 2005, 15:40
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Grunwald 1410 (2)

A bit more about "Grunwald 1410"...

Timeplay was sth. about 5-6 hours, but it depends - I' ve played few days ago and we finished up to 3 hours. Rules - 10-11 pages, counting in tabels, and historical comment.

Game isn't good balanced - Polish-Lithuanian army has bigger chance to win. But it was for me great pleasure to win few times not so far ago playing Teutonic Knights.

And there is another disadvantage - historical truth - the game was done basing on old books and now there were new one which completely changed the view on this battle. In the game there is at the beginning infantry on both sides - in fact there wasn't almost any infantry. Problematic is usage of bombards. And there weren't palisades before Teutonic Knihts Army line as older historiography suggested. Also number of soldiers taking part is now estimated to be lower.

So the last two are main disadventages but in my opinion it is qiute good game, especially if we had compared it with western producion on this battle which are horrible.

OK, hwiccee - please write which historical period you are especially interested in.

Another remark: titles of games in Poland was usually given in a quite easy way - if the game was about battle of Grunwald which was in 1410, the title was "Grunwald 1410". It was almost always in case of Dragon (publisher of most of this games, it doeasn't exist now).

PS. I wrote in the same time... but OK i will write sth more next time :)

_________________
Panie, weźcie kości w rękę i wyobraźcie sobie, że gracie z królem Kastylii, i rzucając je na stół zdajecie wszystko na los bitwy. Jeśli dopisze wam szczęście, zrobicie najlepszy rzut, jaki kiedykolwiek uczynił król na ziemi; a jeśli rzut wam się nie powiedzie, inaczej nie odejdziecie z gry, jak z honorem.

Gil de Osem do króla Portugalii Jana I Dobrego przed bitwą pod Aljubarrotą (14.VIII.1385)


Ostatnio edytowano czwartek, 14 sierpnia 2008, 12:27 przez Raleen, łącznie edytowano 2 razy

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PostNapisane: czwartek, 19 kwietnia 2007, 10:32 
Colonel Général
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Dołączył(a): czwartek, 22 grudnia 2005, 15:40
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Grunwald 1410 (3)

To end up with Grunwald...

Essential role plays infantry, especially Teutonic infantry. There are two tables of combat: one is used when it fights only cavalry, the second when there is any infantry unit in combat. When combat is only between cavalry, side which lost usually retreats, when in combat takes part infantry, there is qiute a lot of eliminations in table. Schedule of combat table is such that if there is +1 column there is one retreat result in it, when +2 there are 2 retreat results, +3 - three, and so on, and in infantry table there is almost the same sequence but in place retreat results appear elimination results. So it looks like. It is quite hitorical because when infantry took part in combat it was usually much more bloody, but another point is that in such case most of casualties shoud be among infantry, and in "Grunwald 1410" this rule is used to eliminate cavalry.

As I wrote there are crossbowmen - each Teutonic infantry unit can shoot. Shooting is very easy - 1D6 roll: 6 enemy retreats and is desorganised (as usually when retreats), 5 means that enemy must withdraw by 1 hex, 1-4 without any effect. Bombards shooting is also very easy - only 6 causes that enemy retreats and is desorganised. Infantry shoots only on 3 front hexes, bombards can shoot up to 2 hexes but only before the front of unit.

When retreating unit (in state of desorganization) is attacked it causes only that he must retreat, no loses. If he couldnt retreat a unit is eliminated.

Zone of controle: each unit has ZOC around himself, bombards and disorganised units don't have ZOC.

Reorganisation: In reorganisation phase each unit which didn't move in last movement phase can be reorganised. A player which one unit is makes 1D6 roll. Teutonic and Polish units reorganise when it falls 1-4, Lituanians and Tatars when it falls 1-2 only. Commanders add their reorganisation feature when they stay on the same or next hex (when on the same full, when on the next both of it). It relies on it that you decrease the roll effect by the reorganisation feature number which has commander.

So in that you can see further elements of tactic in this game which are quite simple as the whole game. It is rather suggested to the begginers as a good one to start. But for advanced wargamers it can be also good. There is no division on fire and had-to-hand combat, phase sequence is basic, there is no charges, each unit has only two main factors: combat strength and movement, simple combat rules, simple combat effects, there is no casualties effect - each reorganised unit has the same strength as before (except the first attack symbole about which I wrote before), there is not to many kinds of units: Polish heavy cavalry, Polish infantry, Lituanian light cavalry, Tatars which are all light cavalry as Lithuanians, Teutonic cavalry, Guests of Order cavalry, Teutonic infantry, bombards, and camps defending units (as each army has one camp).

Grunwald is interesting because it was one of the greatest medieval battles. Polish victory was bloody but decisive - it broken the whole Teutonic Order state especially their military forces - after Grunwald they have had never such an army like in that battle. We can also say that it was an European battle because in Polish-Lituanian army was also Tatars ans russian forces (from the lands ruled by Lithuanians) and in Teutonic armi fought except Germans also... Poles, and there was a lot of knights and forces which came to support them from the western Europe, also from England, from Czech Kingdom (but there were also tho Czech units in Polish army - one is well known because it was near to Polish king - commanded by Dobiesław and the second was unit of St. George). But Teutonic was mainly suported by knights from German territories (so also from Czech Kingdom which was a part od German Roman Empire or how to translate it... - Sigmund the Luxembourg was the king of Czech and Roman emperor. Because of its internetionality the battle seems also very interesting.

OK, I think it's all about Grunwald 1410. Next time I would write about Kircholm 1605. I will also stick numbers to part of my, in fact chaotic, description.

_________________
Panie, weźcie kości w rękę i wyobraźcie sobie, że gracie z królem Kastylii, i rzucając je na stół zdajecie wszystko na los bitwy. Jeśli dopisze wam szczęście, zrobicie najlepszy rzut, jaki kiedykolwiek uczynił król na ziemi; a jeśli rzut wam się nie powiedzie, inaczej nie odejdziecie z gry, jak z honorem.

Gil de Osem do króla Portugalii Jana I Dobrego przed bitwą pod Aljubarrotą (14.VIII.1385)


Ostatnio edytowano czwartek, 14 sierpnia 2008, 12:29 przez Raleen, łącznie edytowano 1 raz

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PostNapisane: czwartek, 19 kwietnia 2007, 11:06 
Shosa
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Dołączył(a): piątek, 17 listopada 2006, 13:36
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Raleen napisał(a):
russian forces (from the lands ruled by Lithuanians)

"Ruthenian" is a better word. Russians are still Russians, but Ruthenians are today Belarussians and Ukrainians.
Raleen napisał(a):
German Roman Empire or how to translate it...

Holy Roman Empire, later also known as Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

Sorry for my interference ;)


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PostNapisane: czwartek, 19 kwietnia 2007, 12:02 
Colonel Général
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Dołączył(a): czwartek, 22 grudnia 2005, 15:40
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Takeo Takagi napisał(a):
Sorry for my interference :wink:

Oh don't matter, it's very well that you interfere. If by that the text becomes more accurate, everyone could only appraciate your remarks :) . As I wrote I didn't use English to much during last one-two years and sometimes usual mistakes can make it unclear.

_________________
Panie, weźcie kości w rękę i wyobraźcie sobie, że gracie z królem Kastylii, i rzucając je na stół zdajecie wszystko na los bitwy. Jeśli dopisze wam szczęście, zrobicie najlepszy rzut, jaki kiedykolwiek uczynił król na ziemi; a jeśli rzut wam się nie powiedzie, inaczej nie odejdziecie z gry, jak z honorem.

Gil de Osem do króla Portugalii Jana I Dobrego przed bitwą pod Aljubarrotą (14.VIII.1385)


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PostNapisane: sobota, 16 sierpnia 2008, 21:09 
Colonel Général
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Dołączył(a): czwartek, 22 grudnia 2005, 15:40
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Here some photo of the game:

http://portal.strategie.net.pl/index.ph ... Itemid=119

_________________
Panie, weźcie kości w rękę i wyobraźcie sobie, że gracie z królem Kastylii, i rzucając je na stół zdajecie wszystko na los bitwy. Jeśli dopisze wam szczęście, zrobicie najlepszy rzut, jaki kiedykolwiek uczynił król na ziemi; a jeśli rzut wam się nie powiedzie, inaczej nie odejdziecie z gry, jak z honorem.

Gil de Osem do króla Portugalii Jana I Dobrego przed bitwą pod Aljubarrotą (14.VIII.1385)


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