Arnhem 1944

[Andrzej]

Jest to znana bitwa, ale czy na pewno jest okazja TiS wydał (lub za mament wyda) drugą wersje bitwy o Arnhem czy ktoś zna OOB tam przedstawione? Ja znalazłem na zachodnim forum garść informacji o biorących w niej wojskach niemieckich

Here is some information on the composition of KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN which was the surviving elements of the 9.SS Panzer-Division that had been ordered to the Arnhem area to rest and reorganize after the heavy losses suffered at Normandy and the withdrawal through northern France and Belgium. During Operation Marker Garden KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN grew from a force of 3500 men to a force of over 13000 men. Here is the composition on 24 September 1944.

KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN

• Stab(fully motorized):
----staff with 115 men
----security company with 120 men
----military police section with 60 men
----Luftwaffe signals section with 100 men

• SS von Allwörden [a battalion sized unit with] (fully motorized)
----a company from SSPzPiBtl. 9 with 60 men acting as infantry
----a company of SS Versorgungstruppe 9 with 110 men acting as infantry
----one anti-tank company with 140 men using hand held weapons
----Naval personnel with 100 men acting as infantry

• SS Harder [a battalion sized unit with] (fully motorized)
----two companies of SS Pz Rgt. 9 with 210 men acting as infantry
----one company of SS Wirtschafts Battalion 9 with 140 men acting as infantry
----Naval personnel with 100 men acting as infantry

• Kampfgruppe 9 SS Spindler (fully motorized):
----two companies of SS Pzgren Rgt 19 with 300 men and no heavy equipment
----two companies of SS Pzgren Rgt 20 with 280 men and no heavy equipment
----two batteries of SS Artillerie Rgt 9 with 370 men acting as infantry
----one light Flak battery with 85 men and 3 towed 2cm Flak guns and 1 SdKfz 10/4 with 2cm Flak gun mounted
----one PzPi section with 40 men

• SS Panzernachrichten Abteilung 9 (fully motorized):
----consists of one mixed company with radio and telephone sections and 200 men

• ‘Bruhns’ (partially motorized);
----a battalion sized formation with eight companies of Army troops supported by Luftwaffe personnel with 970 men

• SS Kraft (partially motorized);
----SS Pzgren depot and reserve Battalion 16 made up of two rifle companies and a heavy weapons company equipped with mortar, light flak, anti-tank and flammthrower platoons. A company of military police acting as infantry was added later. This unit had a total of 410 men

• SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 9 with 420 men organized as follows:
----Stab with
-------2 VW Schwimmwagens
-------1 motorcycle
----1st Company with
-------1 VW Schwimmwagen
-------3 motorcycles
-------3 motorcycles with sidecar
-------1 SdKfz. 231
-------2 SdKfz. 222
-------3 SdKfz. 250/9
-------3 SdKfz. 251/1
-------1 SdKfz. 251/3
----3rd Company with
-------2 VW Schwimmwagen
-------1 motorcycles with sidecar
-------3 SdKfz. 250/1
-------1 SdKfz. 250/3
-------7 SdKfz. 251/1
-------1 SdKfz. 251/3
-------2 SdKfz. 251/10
----5th (Heavy) Company with
-------1 VW
-------1 VW Schwimmwagen
-------2 motorcycles
-------2 SdKfz. 251/1
-------4 SdKfz. 251/2
-------3 SdKfz. 251/3
-------5 SdKfz. 251/9
-------1 SdKfz. 251/16
-------1 medium truck
----Supply Company with
-------2 VWs
-------1 medium car
-------1 motorcycle
-------31 medium trucks
-------4 heavy trucks

• Flak Brigade Swoboda with 15 batteries with 2140 men organized as follows:
----Ladewig
-------3 batteries each with four towed 8.8 cm flak guns
-------1 battery of eight towed 2cm flak gun
----Neumann
-------3 batteries each with four towed 8.8 cm flak guns
-------1 battery of eight towed 2cm flak gun
----‘19’
-------1 battery with three towed 8.8 cm flak guns
-------1 battery with two towed 8.8 cm flak guns
-------1 battery with six towed 3.7 cm flak guns
----Batterie Krüger
-------1 battery with four towed 8.8 cm flak guns and five towed 2cm flak guns
----SS Flak 102
-------1 battery with two towed 3.7 flak guns and eight towed 2cm flak guns

• Artillerie Regiment 191 (fully motorized) with 1282 men;
----I. Battery with
-------three batteries each with four 10.5cm light field howitzers towed
----II. Battery with
-------three batteries each with four 10.5cm light field howitzers towed
----SS Werfer Abteilung 102 with
-------one battery with four towed 15cm heavy field howitzers
-------one battery with two 10cm cannons
-------two batteries each with six 32cm rocket launchers

• Sperrverband Harzer a blocking force with (assigned to Stab ‘Gerhard’):
----Machine Gun Battalion 41
-------with forty heavy machine guns and 550 men (non motorized)
----Köhnen
-------consisting of three companies drawn from Naval Regiments 642 with 675 men (non motorized)
----Schörken
------- consisting of four lightly equipped companies and 650 men (non motorized)
----Kauer
-------three companies of Luftwaffe personnel acting as infantry with 620 men (non motorized)
----3. SS Landstorm Nederland (partially motorized):
-------consisting of three companies with light and medium weapons with 600 men
----one signals section and one pioneer section with 180 men (fully motorized)

• 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 (fully motorized):
-------with 15 Tiger II tanks and 210 men

The 2./sPA 506 was attached with the 10.SS Panzer-Division [see below] and the Stab and the 1./sPA 506 were in a reserve status.

• SS Panzer Regiment 9 (fully motorized):
-------with three Panthers and 52 men

• StuG Brigade 280:
-------with 7 StuG IIIs and 3 StuH 42s (fully motorized) and 195 men

The remainder of StuG Brigade 280 remained at the Dutch/German border and were not involved in the fighting in the Arnhem area.

• Panzer Lehr Battalion 9 [Glogau] ( partially motorized):
-------with three companies of fully equipped engineers and 560 men

• Marine Zwolle (non motorized):
-------with two companies of lightly equipped Naval personnel and 390 men

• Arbeitsdienste[RAD] with 580 men (non motorized):
-------three companies of lightly armed service troops

• SS Sanitäts Abteilung 9 (fully motorized):
-------a Stab and two medical companies with 270 men

• SS Nachschubtruppen ( with 210 men (fully motorized):
-------one supply column with a 60 ton capacity

• Kompanie Weber with 90 men (non motorized):
-------one company of lightly armed Luftwaffe signallers acting as infantry

Add this all up and you arrived at 13,594 men assigned to KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN on 24 September 1944.

In addition SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 9 had 21 Jagdpanzer IVs with the 7.5cm Pak 39 L/48 gun. Many of these had been lost to air attacks prior to Arnhem so the number present during Arnhem and the number in action in the Arnhem area is not known. On 10 October there was only one Jagdpaanzer IV remaining with the unit.

The 10. SS Panzer-Division was also decimated in Normandy and was in the Arnhem area for rebuilding and was down to only 3800 men [does not include supply and service personnel of the division] and organized as KAMPFGRUPPE FRUNDSBERG while in the Arnhem area.

On 5 September the KAMPFGRUPPE FRUNDSBERG had the following assets:

• SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 10
-------2 medium civilian cars
-------11 VWs
-------7 light civilian cars
-------5 motorcycles with sidecar
-------8 light trucks
-------25 medium trucks
-------21 Jagdpanzer IVs with the 7.5cm Pak 39 L/48 gun
-------1 SdKfz 251/8
-------3 motorcycles
-------8 heavy trucks
-------6 Sdkfz 10s
-------5 Maultiers
-------2 SdKfz. 11s
-------1 SdKfz 9/1 with 6 ton crane
-------12 towed 7.5cm Pak 40s

• SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 10
-------4 VWs
-------2 VW Schwimmwagens
-------7 motorcycles with sidecar
-------3 motorcycles
-------4 light civilian cars
-------4 light trucks
-------21 medium trucks
-------1 medium civilian truck
-------2 heavy trucks
-------9 SdKfz 250/1
-------3 SdKfz 250/3
-------1 SdKfz 250/7
-------2 SdKfz 250/9
-------1 SdKfz 250/10
-------3 SdKfz 251/1
-------2 SdKfz 251/3
-------1 SdKfz 251/5
-------3 SdKfz 251/9
-------6 SdKfz 222
-------3 SdKfz 231
-------1 SdKfz 7

• SS Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 10
-------only towed 10.5cm light field howitzers although note that there were 15cm heavy field howitzers present

Other elements of the division were equipped as follows:

• SS Panzer-Regiment 10 with 8 Panthers and 16 Panzer IVs and 2 SdKfz 7./1 with 2 cm flak gun mounted
• SS Flak Abteilung with 1 towed 8.8cm flak gun, 2 towed 2cm flak gun and 1 towed 3.7cm flak gun
• SS Pzgrend-Rgt. 21 with 35 medium SPWs and 2 SdKfz 10/4s with 2cm flak guns mounted and 2 towed 2cm flak guns
• SS Pzgrend-Rgt. 22 with 1 medium SPWs and 1 SdKfz 10/4 with 2cm flak gun mounted
• SS Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 10 with 6 medium SPWs
• SS Panzer-Pionier-Battalione 10 with 7 medium SPWs
• 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 (fully motorized):
-------with 15 Tiger II tanks


Some sources note that the Panthers for SS PR 10 did not arrive in time for the fighting at Arnhem and other sources say they did.


Panzer-Brigade 107 on 15 September with 2117 men had the following assets:

• Brigade Stab with 16 medium SPWs
• Panzer Abteilung 2107 with 36 Panthers and 11 Jagdpanzer IVs and 2 Bergepanthers and 4 Möbelwagens and 2 SdKfz 251/8s
• Panzergrenadier Battalion 2107 with 116 medium SPWs, 8 12cm towed mortars and 1 28cm/32cm rocket launcher. The SPWs were:
--------41 SdKfz. 251/1
--------4 SdKfz. 251/2
--------14 SdKfz. 251/3
--------2 SdKfz. 251/8
--------10 SdKfz. 251/9
--------3 SdKfz. 251/11
--------42 SdKfz. 251/21

• Panzer-Pionier-Battalion with 23 medium SPWs and 6 flamethrowers. The SPWs were:
--------2 SdKfz. 251/1
--------1 SdKfz. 251/3
--------14 SdKfz. 251/7
--------6 SdKfz. 251/16

Other units in the Arnheim area were:

• Panzer-Ersatz-regiment “Bielefeld” with Panzer Kompanie Mielke which had 2 Panzer IVs [ 1 Ausf G and 1 Ausf H] and 6 Panzer IIIs Ausf Gs and Ms.

• schwere-Panzer-Kompanie Hummel with 14 Tiger Is

• Stab and 1./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 (fully motorized):
-------with 15 Tiger II tanks

• Panzer-Kompanie 244 with
-------1 PzKpw. 35S(f)
-------2 PzKpw. B2(f)
-------14 Flammpz. B2(f)
• 1./schwere-Panzerjüager-Abteilung 559 with 4 Jagdpanthers assigned to Kampfgruppe Huber.

That's incorrect I'm afraid!

The I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 existed throughout 1944 but due to lack of Panthers it took until Jan. 1945 before it finally joined its parent division:
9.3.1944 4 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. (Heereszeugamt) to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.5.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.6.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.7.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
9.7.1944 6 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.8.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 10 Pz. V on hand, 2 each with Stabskp., 1. - 4. Kp.
10.8.1944 In his report to the 'Führer' the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. notes that 5 Panthers had been taken away from the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 for refitting active Panzer units in the West.
(i.e. I./SS-10 was down to 5 Panthers again)
22.8.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Op.Abt. orders transfer of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from Mailly-le-Camp, France to Grafenwöhr, Germany
27.9.1944 10 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr, Germany
Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. adds the note '5 vorhanden' i.e. 5 already on hand. That indicates that I./SS-10 made it back from France with its 5 remaining Panthers.

Now you assume that these 10 Panthers went to 'Kampfgrupp Knaust' instead. This however did not happen, they went to I./SS-10 in Grafenwöhr as planned.

a) On 27.10.1944, i.e. with plenty of time to reflect the hectic events of Sep/Oct 1944, the BdE (CiC of the replacement army) prepared a repored about all
'Walküre' and 'Gneisenau' units drawn from the replacement army and sent to the front. Acoording to this report the OoB of Kampfgruppe Knaust was:

- Stab Pz.Gren.Btl. mit Pi.Zug und Nachr.Zug und 4 Pz.Gren.Kpn. (aus Pz.Gren.E.u.A.Btl. 16 und 57)
- 1 Pz.Kp. from Pz.E.u.A.Abt. 11 (AKA Pz.Kp. Mielke)
- 1 Pz.Jg.Zug from Pz.Jg.E.u.A.Abt. 6

Personnel strength:
12 Offz., 107 Uffz., 572 Mannsch.

Weapons and equipment:
31 l.MG
8 s.MG
8 m.Gr.Wf.
8 Pz. IV
7 Pz. III
1 Pz. II
3 Pak (Sf.)
2 le.SPW
59 Lkw
20 Pkw
21 Kräder

As you can see the unit had no Panthers.

b) Quote from an order issued by SS-Führungshauptamt on 22.9.1944 regarding the refit of SS Panzer units in the west: "Auf Tr.Üb.Pl. Grafenwöhr verlegte I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 bleibt den SS-Führungshauptamt unmittelbar unterstellt." i.e. it was not planned to move it to the front.
c) Every month the BdE filed a report about armored units forming and/or refitting in his area of responsibility. These reports go down to company level. All reports from September until December 1944 clearly show the full I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 training on Panthers in Grafenwöhr and waiting to finally be fully equipped with tanks. There is not the slightest indication that the Abteilung or even just a company from it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
d) A daily appendix to the war diary of the Ob. West was the so-called 'Stand der Transportbewegungen' in which track was kept on the whereabouts of all troop reinforcements moving towardss the front. Again there is not the slightest indication that I./SS-10 or parts of it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
e) The Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West was responsibly to supply and maintain all Panzer units in the west. In his war diary one can find a complete and detailed list of armor allocations arriving from 4.9. until 1.10.1944.
One can perfectly match all deliveries in this document with the September Panther allocations of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. because fortunately in both documents the train numbers are given. What you can't find however is the train with the 10 Panthers shipped to I./SS-10 on 27.9.1944. This indicates to me the were not shipped to 10. SS-Pz.Div. near Arnhem but to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr.
The document prepared by the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West also contains data about supply trains that were on the way but had not arrived by 1.10.1944. Once again the train with 10 Panthers for I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 does not appear which infact is not surprising to me since it was not on the way to the front but to Grafenwöhr.
f) On 10.10.1944 the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. presented to the 'Führer' an overview about Panther allocations made during September 1944. While all replacement Panthers shipped to the Western Front are simply summed up under 'Nachschub West' the 10 Panthers for I./SS-10 are listed seperately together with other units also refitting in the 'Reich'. Another clear indication that they did not go to the front.
To sum it up: So far NO concrete evidence has surfaced that the 10. SS-Pz.Div. received any direct deliveries of new Panthers nor that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 or elements of it joint its parent division in September 1944 as has been claimed in recent publications!
Now on to the next problem: It is a little disputed fact that 10. SS-Pz.Div. fielded some Panthers from the beginning of October 1944 at the latest.
Who manned the Panthers?
Surplus crews from II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10! For more explanation see text below.
Where did the Panthers come from?
IMHO there are three possibilities:
1.) On 9.9.1944 the 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH received the order to hand over all remaining equipment to the 9. SS-Pz.Div.. The 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
But on 12.9.1944 the order was changed again. The 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH was to hand over all remaining equipment to the 10. SS-Pz.Div. instead because now the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
How many Panthers I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 had left (couldn't have been many anyway), to what extend or if at all this order was carried out I could not establish, but here we have possible source no. 1 for some of 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
2.) The so-called Pz.Stützpunkt Nord (a temporary tank maintenance facility near Düren) on 14./15.9.1944 reported to the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West that he had 12 Panthern under repair that formerly belonged to the 12. SS-Pz.Div.. It was intended to distribute them to 2. and 9. Pz.Div. (Heer). I do not know what actually happened to them, but it is possible that events around Arnhem changed plans. Here we have possible source no. 2 for 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
3.) The third possible source - and my current favorite - is a very simple one: I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9!
On 19.9.1944 the allocation records of the Gen.Insp.d.z.Tr. show a shipment of 20 Panthers and 2 Bergepanthers as 'Nachschub West' to the front without a specific unit mentioned. The records of the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West show that these 22 tanks were already picked up the very next day by the 9. SS-Pz.Div.!
Already beginning 30.9./1.10.1944 the 9. SS-Pz.Div. started pulling out of the front line for refit in Germany. A few days later OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. ordered 9. SS-Pz.Div. to leave all armor behind for divisions remaining on the front.
I find it pretty logic that 9. SS then handed over its remaining tanks to 10. SS as it had already been intended before Arnhem.
Knocked out new Panthers near Elst can easily be explained for instance with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 supporting 10. SS-Div. (why is it automatically considered that any Panthers operating in 10. SS sector must have belonged to that division???)
co wy na to ?

[Raleen]

Dzięki Andrzeju za to OdB. Jak zwykle wiedzę faktograficzną co do struktur prezentujesz znakomitą.

Przy okazji tej bitwy ciekawi mnie ocena pod kątem struktur gry "Arnhem 1944" Dragona a potem TiSa. Pamiętam, że były tam zawsze wątpliwości, zwłaszcza co do liczebności wojsk biorących udział w bitwie, głównie dywizji SS. Do tej pory zwykle polegałem na zdanniu autora, który bardzo tą bitwę lubił i była jedną z tych, które znał najlepiej, więc i za bardzo nie sprawdzałem. Oczywiście zawsze odnośnie wojsk zwłaszcza SS będą tłumaczenia, że jak będą za silne to dlatego, że zdaniem kogoś miały większą wartosc bojową mimo mniejszej siły, ale mimo wszystko warto by podjąc próbę oceny. Czy to w tym temacie czy wydzielając osobny pod recenzję.

Byc może ktoś z Was ma jeszcze inne dane, to dyskusja będzie bardziej wszechstronna.. Jeśli macie to wrzucajcie.

[Gonzo]

Dzięki Andrzeju za to OdB. Jak zwykle wiedzę faktograficzną co do struktur prezentujesz znakomitą.

Dla mnie jest strukturalnym wzorem

[Andrzej]

Panowie bez przesady po prostu moim zdaniem podanie właściwych struktur walczących stron jest bardzo ważne gdyż miało to znaczny wpływ na dowodzenie oddziałami a co za tym idzie i często decydowało o wyniku starcia. Prawda jest taka że po Falaise po stronie niemieckiej pojawiło sie sporo dywizyjnych lub pułkowych grup bojowych. w czasie bitwy o Arnhem działały KG SS "Heinke", KG "Walther", KG SS "Brinkmann", KG "Reinhold" i kilka innych które szybko znikały z mapy mamy też zbiorczą dywizje "Tettau". Nie znam OOB podane w nowej grze dlatego nie jestem w stanie nic konkretnego powiedzieć. Z braku czasu nie zawsze podawać struktur po polsku i nieraz podaje w języku autorów bądź dokumentów.